The Winding Path – 080

For the context of the following comments please click on the hyperlinks above them.

2014-07-20 10:03

Asemodeus responding to Ray - “Besides not actually proving divine creation in the first place. That is some interesting cognitive dissonance you have there.”

A sensation of smug satisfaction is not evidence that you have refuted, or even addressed, his points.

2014-07-20 10:40

TapestryGarden - ” I was raised by atheists and they were quite intellectual rather than ideological.”

Yes! Removing the mirror of ideological thinking moves the enquiry to a higher level.

So much nonsense on both sides of the debate drops away. Leaving refined and complementary tools of reason and faith alone to fulfill their potential.

Let’s call it wisdom.

2014-07-21 07:32

Asemodeus - “It’s always funny watching christians get mad when you ask of them to provide evidence.”

Have you first established your own credentials as Fair Witness?

For starters, what in his writing has indicated to you that he is getting “mad”?

As for “evidence”, what kind of preparation have you made in yourself to perceive it?

2014-07-22 06:46

(Responding to Asemodeus’s evasive ridicule.)

They seemed like “Fair” questions to me.

Not sure what you mean by “blame”.

Your relationship to the “Larger Cosmic Domain”, is your own business. i.e. “your god”. And I don’t need you to prove anything about it. I can see for myself.  This is fair.

“Let me know when you are ready to provide evidence for your god claims. Until you do, there is zero reason to take you seriously.” - Asemodeus

This is not.

2014-07-22 10:13

(Asemodeus quoting me and responding.)

brmckay - “Not sure what you mean by ‘blame’.”

Asemodeus – “Your total lack of responsibility in the discussion.”

brmckay - “I can see for myself.”

Asemodeus - “Confirmation bias is a common problem for christians. Which is why, in science, we have falsifiability and peer review. Since, if something is actually real, it would be real for everyone. Reality isn’t subject to only your imagination.”

brmckay – “This is not.”

Asemodeus – “Not my fault you refuse to take even yourself seriously.”

Not everybody is a Scientist. Not everybody is a Christian. Be careful of assumptions.

As for reality? Show me something that is not real, when the Totality is the starting point.

My (and your’s for that matter) imaginings, are as real as any quasar. If one traces Existence to it’s root.

It seems to me that you fixate on Prakriti and ignore Purusha. This may be your way, but it is not mine.

And probably not Ray’s either. Though he would frame his enquiry differently.

2014-07-23 18:13

Asemodeus - “… it will really open your mind for once.”

Fascinatingly ingenuine.

Asemodeus - “Ah ok, it is the gibberish transition with the apologetics.”

Reflexive rhetoric.

Asemodeus - “That’s very delusional and very dangerous. … Which is why eye witness testimony is the lowest form of evidence we can muster, if you can even call it that.”

Just admit you have no talent for it. That would be the first step towards:

” ‘questioning yourself’ and ‘double checking’ your assumptions.” – Asemodeus”

This stops being fun when I start to mimic your bad habits. If we can’t proceed to some level of understanding, I’ll throw in the towel and give you the satisfaction of yet another “victory” over ….what?

Before I do, it is timely to reiterate one of the more interesting, but unaddressed questions posed to you.

What kind of preparation have you made in yourself to perceive this apparently elusive “evidence” of God?

I am also evidence driven, but will set the terms for my own enquiry. Based on what Life sets before me. Guided by my own sense of integrity.

Why would you suggest otherwise?

2014-07-24 06:43

Asemodeus - ” This whole conversation started because you wouldn’t provide evidence for your claims like a big boy. “

No, it started because I took it upon myself to point out that you were mistaking smug satisfaction as evidence that you had refuted Ray’s points. And now I have demonstrated that this is a consistent pattern. A fundamental personality trait. Not evidence of any sort of science, philosophy or ultimate truth.

I am happy that you have illustrated so clearly the neurotic and diseased nature behind an ego driven version of atheism.

Others may be inspired to pursue healthier and more authentic forms.

2014-07-24 18:20

(Responding to Asemodeus but certainly ready to wrap it up.  Hoping that this is still useful.)

What’s tiresome, is this foolish conversation.

It is irrational to go around insisting on proof that Existence exists.

You anthropomophize something that you call god, and then dare people to provide evidence that it exists.

I offer you all your previous comments in this thread, as that evidence.  Your conceptualization of what god is, does indeed exist. You rehearse it continually.

I prefer to watch reality unfold through the lense of my Life. Making choices that add value and clarity to it.

It disturbs me that you are so disturbed by this.

What’s with the violent cartoon below? And what do you mean by this?

Asemodeus - “You presuppose the existence of god, with no evidence, and just base even more assumptions onto it. That’s dangerous thinking, and it needs to stop.”

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The Winding Path – 079

For the context of the following comments please click on the hyperlinks above them.

2014-07-19 11:21

(Responding to a Blog post about the flood of children illegally entering the United States from the south.)

I’ve read through most of the comments so far. Didn’t see any mention of the part that we in the U.S. play in keeping the drug cartels in business.

It’s time to put some shame on users of cocaine. All we do is arrest people. We need to help them see the harm that their lack of awareness causes.

Like our devastation of the environment, the world we live in can only take so much.

Glossing over the root cause of the problem, inevitably yields the results that we see now.

There is one root cause. Lack of Awareness is our primal sin, and we waste so much time obsessing over the effects of it. And those get worse every season.

2014-07-20 09:41

Asemodeus - “You don’t need to appeal to any divinity to understand Newton’s mathematics and physics. Because such appeals do not add to our understanding, they merely slow us down.”

Yes, but then you have limited yourself to only understanding mathematics and physics.

Ruling out Gnosis just means you have turned a blind eye to our full potential. Content to collect shiny baubles on the beach.

This indeed “slow[s] us down”.

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The Winding Path – 078

For the context of the following comments please click on the hyperlinks above them.

2014-07-07 10:19

(Resonding to an article countering the recent Presbyterian Church’s divestment from Israeli settlements in the West Bank.)

Everyone should hold the Israelis accountable for their thuggishness. Which, it seems to me, stems from an abundance of ethnocentric narcissism and neurosis.

Just as we should, of course, hold ourselves accountable for current manifestations of irrational anti semitism.

But, postponing moral action in the here and now, until we also hold ourselves accountable for 2000 years of ancestor stupidity, does not strike me as helpful.

Consider that the disinvestment is a form of atonement. I assume these were lucrative holdings.

Understand that I am not letting the Palestinians off the hook. They have their own version of pathetic to deal with.

But, someone needs to stand up for the simple people who just want to live in peace and prosperity.

No one should be encouraged to profit from, or revel in the suffering of others.

To the degree that we do, we should stop it.

2014-07-07 10:49

Yonah – “A just response would be that Hamas bow out, and let Israel and Fatah do the deal that they are quite able and willing to do. Both those parties want to negotiate a resolution. Both of their constituencies want it. It’s almost happened a couple times.”

Hamas is a convenient excuse. What do you suppose the real agenda is?

Which constituents are your referring to?

2014-07-07 11:11

Guest responding to Jim – “You should try reading the Bible sometime.   Israel is not going anywhere, ever.”

Yes, leave it to Abrahamic tradition to earnestly spin the wheel of Samsara.

But forever is a big word.

2014-07-07 15:03

Yonah – “Most Israelis and Jews generally were shocked when Gaza elected Hamas. Since then, they’ve not been able to arrive at your desired point of just accepting that they should self-destruct.

As to constituencies, constructive ones are the centrists ready, willing, and able to make a deal. All political groups have their Tea Parties to control. Extremists have every economic incentive to knock centrists off the peace process.

Now. As to you addressing a Jew with a direction that he out his people’s supposed hidden agenda at whatever neo-blood libel has highest current market value…well, you can just put that on the same plate with a double-bacon cheeseburger taken to the interfaith pot luck and eat it yourself.”

I liked the first two paragraphs. Last one illustrates a large component of the problem.

My hope is that I don’t have much of a tribe other than people who want to see clearly through the fog.

It’s hard to trust anyone who identifies strongly at the expense of another.

Understanding that we create and maintain our enemies until we don’t.

“Neo Libel”, “interfaith pot luck”? Oh, well.

2014-07-08 08:33

Yonah – “Yes. Jews have always been a ‘problem‘ in the West.”

West of what?

2014-07-08 09:18

Yonah responding to Joe Catron – “Now. I have to go to my grandaughter’s T-Ball game in Cardington, Ohio….although I know you wish we were in that village across the border.

So. When you ever leave Gaza…would you come to Ohio and maybe kill some Jewish kids in ‘response‘? What’s the big diff?”

If someone laid this kind of deflective nonsense on you, what conclusions would you draw about their grasp of truth and justice?

Oh, right; I must hate Jews for even asking.

2014-07-08 09:46

Yonah responding to Joe Catron – “..and then for you to throw you moral hands up in the air…wash your hands of the blood by fleeing to the imported karmic religions as an insulation from moral accountability FOR YOUR OWN PERSONAL MORAL EFFECT ON GAZAN YOUTH…Really?”

Not sure if you are getting your own religion right, but I would say, that it is the highest “morality” to recognize wisdom, and choose to serve it.

An “Eye for an Eye” leaves the entire world blind.

A Buddhist understands this. The lesson has been learned.

I would like to think that at least some Rabbi’s get it as well. But, tradition and ethnocentric “self righteousness” has a very strong center of gravity. Who would listen to them?

2014-07-08 16:14

Well Yonah, I will not go down that blind alley with you. Wasting words back and forth. I have said what I have to say and said it with what skill I have.

If you find it useless tripe, just say that. Why let yourself go off the rails like this. Annotating a phantom conversation with a imagined adversary.

I have read your conversation with Joe Catron and don’t need to repeat it.

My points are still standing unaddressed. We can leave it that way and let others make of it what they will. As you suggest.

2014-07-09 10:22

It takes a lot of time to write less. Filling the page with words provides too much opportunity to be an asshole.

and…, gives certain readers more minutia to quibble about.

For lack of an adequate term I used “ethnocentric”. The meaning should still be apparent from the context.

Anyway, I’m talking about Israelis. Particularly the West Bank Settlement “nuts”. And hard line Zionists.

It’s not just soldiers who have “bled and died” for their “religious extremism”. We all have to put our hopes and dreams for a sane world on hold, while those folks and their shadow demons, feed the flames of holocaust.

I include the sociopathic elements of Islam in this as well. You seem to have “overlooked” that reference, along with everything else I’ve said. So please knock off the dishonesty.

Yonah – “Who in Gaza’s Palestinian community will say to Hamas leadership ‘We bled and died for your religious extremism?‘ 

Apparently, it won’t be anyone you support.”

I don’t need to write more to make myself understood. You seem so eager to illuminate the problem for me.

Here is the original comment for those who prefer not to plow back through the mountain of verbiage above.

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The Winding Path – 077

For the context of the following comments please click on the hyperlinks above them.

2014-07-02 11:32

brmckay – “If you wish to identify with the relative and perishable self, ignoring the eternal, it is ok. But not necessary. Much of our lives are lived on autopilot. But that doesn’t sum things up.”

Maine_Skeptic  - “You’re responding to something different than what I said. My point is that we should NOT let living our lives on autopilot sum things up. If someone is ‘steering the ship,’ there should be evidence of that. Instead, the evidence suggests collective sleepwalking, and we as individuals have to wake up from the illusion that making our societies work is “somebody else’s problem.”

Thanks, sorry. I always sound like I’m arguing.

I’m just emphasizing the potential of that awakening. Evolution makes no sense without the impulse to do so.

However, the nature of the awakened one, is not summed up by the relative powers of the individual.

I used the phrase; “That nature, non-different from absolute infinitude.”

This, instead of the word God. But that is just for your sake.

The collective is connected through the stillpoint of singularity.

What evidence is required?

If “moths and rust” have incapacitated “Christianity“, then by all means abandon it.

The Truth is Eternal. Our comings and goings, a dance upon it’s surface.

2014-07-02 14:39

 brmckay - “I always sound like I’m arguing.”

Maine_Skeptic – “Not arguing, exactly, though I’m not sure what it sounds like you ARE doing. A mix of prophesying and poetry, maybe? :^)

Given that communication doesn’t usually go well when people are speaking different languages, I’m curious about your approach. It almost seems like you’ve got a Hare Krishna sensibility, as if saying the words will have an impact on the listener, even though they don’t know what the words mean.”

You are right. The older I get the more faith, and therefor effort, I put into the art. It’s as much for me as for anybody else.

Talking to/from the Right Hemisphere. Usually after labyrinthine mazes on the Left are navigated first.

Perhaps I’ll call it prayer. At least in private.

Thanks for the Hare Krishna reference. Though my main influence is Patanjali, and they wouldn’t necessarily cut me any slack for that. Good food though.

2014-07-05 11:45

Mike Barnhart responding to allegro63 – “But progressives do throw out the parts they dislike, yes? Not an attacking or baiting question, but an honest one.”

allegro63 – “So do traditionalists. EVERYONE picks and chooses which parts of the Bible they are going to adhere to, which they feel apply to someone other than themselves, which no longer applies to anyone, and which part they are going to carefully ‘forget‘ to read. To deny that they do, means a bit of dishonesty is going on.”

Reading scripture with the intention of cultivating inspiration is an art.

Through inspiration we gain an increasingly accurate perception of the Divine Oneness that is God.

We pick and choose differently each time we sit down to contemplate. The art of it, is in our openness to being guided by innate Truth. The hidden hand of God.

Rule mongers like Mike Barnhart are speed bumps on the way to heaven. We will just have to sail over them on the wings of Grace.

Perhaps in our passing by, they may be dislodged, at least briefly, from their entrenchment
.
Possibly even getting over the foolish rule, that God cannot be known.

2014-07-05 12:01

(Pinging Mike Barnhart by responding to his reply to allego63)

Mike, I don’t know if you are still allowed to comment, but perhaps you will receive a notice of this reply.

I have annotated allegro63′s comment and have chosen to use your name to represent a class of religionist thinker that in my opinion, impedes the process of enlightenment. Both for the individual, and for community.

Just thought you should be aware of what was said.

2014-07-05 12:28

(Responding to John Shore’s article chastising Progressive Christian Pastors who don’t let their congregations know.)

People who aren’t deranged, but live in fear of those who are, cause untold suffering. Just look at the Islamic world for an example, of what not standing up leads to.

To all those who know better, but only teach the watered down version, shame on you. Time is short and the journey is long.

2014-07-05 13:12

Bones responding to Mike Barnhart – “I KNOW that Christians are more hung up on what a sin is than God is.”

Not really “what a sin is“, but what behavior is on THE LIST.

Some remedial education on what “sin” is, would be a good thing.

Starting with, what makes any attitude or action problematic?

As you infer; “problematic” is not God’s problem. But rather, what makes it difficult for Me, to understand, the one thing that needs understanding?

I and the Father are One.

This replaces THE LIST, with a simple formula. Carried in the HEART.

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The Winding Path – 076

For the context of the following comments please click on the hyperlinks above them.

(Addressing various comments found on the The Clergy Project blog at Patheos.)

2014-07-01 10:17

(Resonding to a comment by Preston.)

The problem of course was taking metaphor literally and not knowing that you were doing so.

Your interest in God was something entirely different than what would yield results.

But…

Carrying the same tendencies forward into a reason bound life will just repeat the exercise.

The pendulum swings past the center. But wait! What can the center teach that we have so far ignored?

Each iteration improves the possibilities but only if we stay alert with hopeful hearts.

Teaching Godlessness is not helpful if the people you are teaching just parrot what they think you have said.

Same as before.

2014-07-01 10:34

(Resonding to a comment by Preston.)

You touch the Truth, and know it, because of the freedom you experience. But be careful. Building new walls of dogma around that freedom will kill it.

Perhaps replacing Godless with dietyless would open up even wider horizons.

The great question “Who am I?” is deceptively simple. Who owns this new freedom?

If you say, and actually believe, “I do” then you are no less a “myth” than your previous christian self.

2014-07-01 10:57

Dan Barker - “Yes, I think we all find different metaphors and analogies useful in describing our dynamic experiences of growth. Douglas Hofstadter thinks ALL thought is metaphor, since all we do is build models in our brains (minds). I don’t know about that, but it certainly seems natural to use words like “enlightenment” when it comes to growing up and discarding pretense. A lot of the former ministers in the Clergy Project talk like that.”

Enlightenment is the process whereby the relative and finite awareness reconciles with absolute and infinite primordial Awareness.

Self without Other.

Stopping the process short, just means you want to rest on the journey home. Explore a bit, take in the sights. Pleasant and unpleasant.

I’m using analogies, but reality remains untouched.

Human beings are still half baked. This is a helpful metaphor.

2014-07-01 11:13

(jim thomas responding to Kent Truesdale)

“Kent, in one sense I agree with you — there are so many flavors of Christianity, with a wide spread at that, it is dangerous to generalize about all Christians.

All the same, anyone who believes that God created 100 billion galaxies, each with 100 billion stars and personally cares about you and listens (and even sometimes answers) your prayers … well … I’d say that is pretty damn presumptuous and self centered.”

I will suggest that you rework your understanding about just how these 100 billion galaxies exist.

The nature of existence and the potential to exist.

Dismissing God because of a stunted conceptualization of “Creation”, is indeed presumptuous.

As for “prayer”, what is the source of the one who prays?

When I intend to move from point A to point B. How does this happen?

2014-07-01 11:35

(Responding to a comment by Maine_Skeptic)

“No one steering the ship.” But evolution proceeding in a stew of relative and complementary polarities. Obeying nature.

That nature, non-different from absolute infinitude.

The law of Self discovery. Everything purposeful to the extent that the point may seem mute.

If you wish to identify with the relative and perishable self, ignoring the eternal, it is ok. But not necessary. Much of our lives are lived on autopilot. But that doesn’t sum things up.

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The Winding Path – 075

For the context of the following comments please click on the hyperlinks above them.

2014-06-26 09:24

troymo – “.. and surely the best way to eliminate our need for oil is to use the cheapest most efficient energies available; in order to maintain the strongest, most functional, economy possible; thereby allowing us to care for and educate as many as possible; allowing us to produce and innovate to the best of our ability.

Keep energy cheap, keep the economy strong, tax subsidies for those companies investing in innovation of clean renewables.”

But…how is keeping the status quo healthy, going to generate moral, sane and holistic motivation?

To me, the revelations provided by this video sting, indicates how deeply, self serving predation runs.

Unconscious foundation of Lizard brains.

Echos of “Mutually Assured Destruction”.

2014-06-27 10:06

No, I wasn’t suggesting that you thought the status quo was best. I understand what you are saying but, as always, am plagued by the awareness of “something missing” in the dominant worldview.

We are stuck with fossil fuels because of the inertia of past choices. We are also stuck with certain characteristic limitations of our species to go along with our special talents.

Without an overriding conscious decision to change directions, and do things “right”, we will reach only stalemate as vested interests compete for control of the market. That being the root paradigm. And, like the villains in the video, subversion of integrity is not off the table, as long as it leverages things their way.

Leaving it to market forces, without the application of a guiding wisdom, will reproduce the same old same old.

My reference to “Mutually Assured Destruction” still seems to be an adequate analogy.

Like nuclear weaponry. Fracking just seems morally wrong to some of us. If only because the water used by the process, is being “permanently’ isolated from the eco system and exchanged for previously sequestered carbon.

Human beings need to get a grip on their ambitions and appetites, until they understand the bigger picture.

2014-06-28 09:17

troymo – “Yes you make great points …. unfortunately, I’m not sure ‘human nature‘ allows for the ‘controlled appetites‘ you speak of. Certainly our economies do not – markets being a measure of human behavior.

We depend on markets same as markets depend on us. And so, as they go we go… a conundrum for sure.”

Best we can do I suppose, is to help cultivate an appetite for understanding. Trusting to the power of truth to override the baser influences.

Thanks for your and your readers’ parts in that.

2014-06-29 09:41

(Note: This blog is part of the Clergy Project and was about a Humanist Community formed to give disaffected Christians a place to go on Sundays.)

Maine_Skeptic – “The ‘tribalism‘ accusation seems to be popping up a lot lately, and it’s irritatingly simplistic. It’s one thing to be more loyal to a gang or tribe than one’s principles, but the idea that gathering together equates to tribalism is ridiculous. Human beings are collaborative by nature.”

It becomes tribalism when the group identity relies on periodic sessions of ridicule. If a scapegoat is required; i.e. believers in fairy tales, unicorns, gods or God, then there is nothing of value in the collaboration.

Nothing new to learn. Just more of “us and them”.

If, on the other hand, people are getting together to examine reality from an unencumbered and dogma free vantage point, I’d say it could be helpful.

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The Winding Path – 074

For the context of the following comments please click on the hyperlinks above them.

2014-06-23 10:15

(At:  http://troymo.wordpress.com)

This is a very satisfying blog. I will study how you get such open mindedness from the participating Atheists.

You have said that admission of “relative” viewpoint on your part is the secret. Possibly. But the budding of what approaches real contemplation, is a thing of beauty to witness.

My “paradigm” begins with infinity. But the infinity of singularity, not that of self regulating sets. Those are second stage phenomena. Not really infinite. In fact, the essence of the finite. The emergent characteristic of Singularity.

The Entirety. God.

Following from this, is us. Related to it and not different from it. Knowing as self the one Self. Because it is.

Knowing.

portion of response from troymo – “I would say that (my) ‘relative perspective’ is the only place to start when having a conversation with atheists, and so the best way to invite them (into) having a discussion about (their) relative perspective. I find I am often disappointed (with) how deeply lost people can become within their ‘relative paradigm.’ This article therefore is an attempt to promote (such) awareness of just what ‘this’ means, and how easily we are lost to it (myself included).”

2014-06-24 11:10

(After following a video link provided by troymo in his blog posting.)

Thanks. I think that this is my first encounter with David Berlinski. I’m pleased that my blind fumblings have brought me into his company.

With confirmation of such caliber I can let the reins out a little; Confidence strengthened. An evolutionary process.

Intuition and reason; The intention to pay attention.

In early stages of the enquiry, a watchful self doubt is a helpful thing. Looking for overplayed and foolish certainties.

However, at some point, the great leap requires a final smashing of the mirror.

2014-06-25 10:13

(And, in a delightfully timely fashion, there is an opportunity to practice troymo’s technique.)

brmckay - “Time to let go of the Bible then. Contemplation of God does not require such a flimsy interface. Whoever the carpenter was, it would be my guess that he didn’t thumb through the pages of a book for confirmation.”

Caroline Fairless – “Here’s my question. Does the understanding of the universe as sacred require divine agency at all? In other words, no carpenter.”

Interesting words “sacred” and “divine”. They indicate an attitude, not just of the mind, but of the heart.

For me, cultivation of a sense of the sacred is much more imperative than cultivating say money for instance. But for others, of course, that isn’t always the case.

That was not your question though. It was about understanding the universe as sacred without including contemplation of divine agency.

Sure. Why not? However, understanding the universe requires the same all encompassing grasp of infinitude as is required for understanding God.

It also has to encompass the nature of existence, self and consciousness.

If the universe is sacred, and there is a conscious agent living within it, even if it is only you, then that agent would be divine.

Whether you are a carpenter by trade or not.

I’ll backup a bit though. I have to ask. What is awareness? What is self? What is infinitude? What is finitude? We know the experience of these phenomena from a very narrow and subjective vantage point. What is the real picture? Are you not in awe?

I have my ways of thinking about this, but what are yours?

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The Winding Path – 073

For the context of the following comments please click on the hyperlinks above them.

(Note:  The following took place on the “Clergy Project” blog. )

2014-05-22 11:21

(Responding to an Essay by John Lombard.  An ex fundamentalist missionary turned Atheist.)

I never understand ( or, if I do, it seems incredulous) why losing faith in the Christian storyline, means that the only option is atheism.

It often seems that the more fundamentalist the individual’s tendencies, the more this is true.

I have struggled for forty years towards a clear understanding of God. This has, from the beginning, required that I not become confused or waylaid by their proselytization.

Applying instead, my intuition and reason to study what God, Christ and Man really is.

Sometimes I switch to Sanskrit.

Sometimes to Chinese or Japanese and sometimes to plain old English.

And now Quantum Physics confirms the wisdom of the elders.

It boils down to giving credit where credit is due. Despite transitory and myopic inattention to the evidence.

To me, not contemplating God, means I would be failing to serve my humanity.

If you need evidence, just open your eyes, mind and heart without grasping at certainties.

Call it atheism if you have to. But why burden the children with even more baggage to work through?

(Note: His reply is relatively long and skewed in it’s interpretation of what I said.  But quite interesting and informative.  You can read it here.)

2014-06-08:43

I know you spent a lot of time on this reply, but could you re-read what I said and try again.

Perhaps an invocation of “Beginners Mind” will help.

John Lombard - “I’m sorry…but when you’re invoking nonsense like “quantum physics confirms the wisdom of the elders” or that relying on certainties is somehow inferior to relying on…what (you never actually say)…”

2014-06-14 17:36

All right then, I will have to do it for you. If I don’t, you’ll use up another hour railing against your projections.

What conclusions of mine have you rejected, if I haven’t mentioned any? Other than inferences about a 21st century refresh of the God concept.

I choose to advocate for a personal engagement with the Singularity. Finding that Human beings are well suited for this quest. (Gosh! It’s almost like we were made for it. – Yes I’m baiting you. Let’s substitute; made from it. This should spare you the need to say “balderdash” again.)

The “certainties” that I suggested you avoid grasping at, are merely atomized assemblages based on the perceivers vantage point. True understanding of course, does not reside there, since as you well know, reality is analog. Or is it?

If not the Entirety? What?

You rail on about “gods”. Sorry, not my bag. Why wasn’t that apparent to you in my first comment?

If your period of “contemplation” bore no fruit, I suggested that you were “grasping at certainties” where the opposite is required.

Consider the practise of “Neti Neti” as a remedy. The Elders have left you footholds and tools. Use them.

2014-06-14 18:10

Kevin Osborne responding to John Lombard - ‘any religion or belief system will appear “true” if one is isolated from everything that contradicts that belief.’

“If free enough to know *everything* then one may appraise the all with accuracy. Otherwise be thrown into the wash like the rest of us, to gurgitate and find truth where we may.
I suspect the latter.”

(Responding to Kevin Osborne.)

Yes! gurgitation. The missing Word.

2014-06-16 09:06

 Mr. Two - “Among the worldly foolishness contained therein is the idea that there is such a thing as divine wisdom.”

First problem is holding some things up as divine and others up as worldly.

That paradigm should be old school by now.

When contemplating God, it makes no sense to think in terms of gods, or god and man, or heaven and hell. Even me and you.

The Entirety that is the expression of infinitude, manifesting as Here and Now should be a sufficient starting point. The field of enquiry can only be Awareness. That awareness is Self.

2014-06-16 09:42

John Lombard - “There’s a huge logical difference between debate over ‘does god exist’ and ‘what kind of god exists’.”

In light of our previous conversation, I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts on my comment above. Even if  it is a rebuttal, well rehearsed or otherwise.

If you notice, I seem to be advocating a form of attention rather than a belief system.

As regards the above quote, how does it parse. Is this of sufficient interest or, something already dismissed as irrelevant?

2014-06-16 12:52

brmckay - “If you notice, I seem to be advocating a form of attention rather than a belief system.”

Mr. Two – “Yes, I noticed. I don’t know exactly what you’re getting at, but if I’m not buying ancient thoughts about god, here in an age when we understand so much more than those people did, I’m not going to trade Jehovah in on a “The Secret” or an idea that all of nature and the universe is metaphysically connected. It’s simply another form of woo that seems to be inspired by people’s imaginations.”

You have a very strong aversion reaction to something you refer to as, “an idea that all of nature and the universe is metaphysically connected.”

Remove the word “metaphysically” please. I haven’t got a clue what that means.

We have different understanding than past generations, but that is all surface. Nothing has changed about reality.

I used the word “attention.” What problem could you possibly have with that? I’m sure that we can both nit pick at each others attitudes and conjectures, but what’s that got to do with the nature of existence?

2014-06-17 09:18

Mr. Two – “I think you need to start your own blog and spell out what you’re talking about, rather than try to give little hints on someone else’s blog and hope people will suddenly have a Eureka moment where what you’re hinting at suddenly becomes clear.

–EDIT– Sorry, I see that you do have a blog. I shall go have a look.”

I have to go where the work is.

It’s a simple thing actually. Not a “Secret”. Quite a common theme throughout history.

Different people have found ways to help me over the years. I try to continue the process. Both in myself and in others. It is nature at work. Like gravity. Like evolution.

Since you have trouble with my style and shortcomings, perhaps Kevin Osbourne’s blog will get you closer.

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The Winding Path – 072

For the context of the following comments please click on the hyperlinks above them.

(Note: The context of the following is an essay by Benjamin L. Corey, an Anabaptist, addressing the idolatry of guns amongst some Christians. )

2014-06-12 15:21

Remember, he is blindly rationalizing his idolatry. Using Old Testament narrative to that end.

I would also suggest that those inclined to doing so, have made a golden calf out of the Bible and a deity out of Jesus.

No actual interest in God realization.

2014-06-11 15:21

If only Jesus had been packing his Glock. The message would have been so much easier to interpret. Right?

Spared us from the ambiguity of Easter Bunnies as well.

2014-06-12 15:36

F. Everett – ” It is an absolute travesty that someone would take the Holy Word of God and twist it to push the 2nd amendment agenda of Obama and the political left.”

The travesty is deifying politics. Best not speak for Jesus until that is clear.

2014-06-12 15:52

If the redeeming aspect of the sacrifice is completely misinterpreted, where does the fault lie?

What attachment blinds the eye?

Where is the evidence of redemption?

Is death real that you should fear it? All the time clinging to your “stuff”?

2014-06-12 16:02

Give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s

Politics is a seductive distraction from the awareness of Singularity.

Why isn’t that clear to more people?

2014-06-12 16:45

We’re studying a very visceral attachment here. I believe that gimpi1 had it quite correct when she linked it to libido.

Mindfulness requires commitment and lots of practice.

I’ll take a moment to praise the Mennonites for their creed of “non-violence”. They worked hard to keep us out of Iraq, but the tide of blood lust was too strong. That and a cartel of bent “Christians” in league with the “Military Industrial Complex”.

2014-06-12 17:32

Let’s extend “guns” to “nuclear arsenal”. What could be the reason for it’s existence other than fear? A fear that overrides any concern for the utter sin of it’s existence or, “God forbid”, its deployment.

Let’s extend “gun control activists” to “anti nuclear activists”. What could be their reason for trying to wake us up?

Yes, fear is pervasive on both sides of the argument. What do you suppose the solution is? Who are we afraid of?

Other people!

What do you suppose Jesus would have to say about that?

2014-06-12 17:52

I don’t get the atonement thing at all. What I understand from the cross, is that he showed us death is not real. God is Eternal and we are not separate from God.

Period.

If we ignore that, then of course we live the way we continue to live. Running away from a phantom. Grasping at shiny things.

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The Winding Path – 071

For the context of the following comments please click on the hyperlinks above them.

(From a blog talking about talking in tongues)

2014-06-07 11:07

allegro63 - “That has been my experience as well. If one person uses particular phrases, everyone will, and it becomes a cacophony of phrases in group settings.”

BarbaraR responding to allegro63 - “Why would that happen? I mean, my initial thought is “mass hysteria” but I’m trying to leave that out of the equation and see if there’s legitimacy here.”

A communal experience of an altered state is a very common and helpful initiation. Sets us on the path. Confirms and validates what was once faith.

But…

Getting attached to any aspect will inhibit it’s evolution. Adding layers of interpretation, ritually re-enacting. The Great Mystery will remain unknown. Only hinted at.

(Responding to the original blog essay.)

2014-06-07 11:32

Some reading into the phenomena of Savant Syndrome will surely open our eyes to the possibility. But, like rose colored glasses, our habits and expectations will color the experience.

For me, God is a given. I want to know what that means. Getting stuck in opinions will only prevent it.

2014-06-07 11:53

aspekx - “whether it’s because of god is an entirely different question.”

There is only God. But, people want a storyline. Millennia pass as we creep towards understanding the utter simplicity of it.

2014-06-10 09:37

(Responding to a blog essay on “Secular Christianity” at a site dedicated to Christian clergy who have become Atheists.  In re-reading this I’m inclined to feel it is probably overly blunt to the point of being mean.)

Fascinating and frustrating reading through all this.

One of the few moments of real insight was the quote from Einstein in Melissa Mills’ comment below.

Actually, her whole comment was what I call the “good stuff”. The kind of thing people should go to clergy for. Wisdom

But instead we get big buildings, funny hats, crusades and painfully crippling politics.

And now…

The same people who have made their livings bolstering primitive and simple minded caricatures of God, have doubts? Halleluyah!

But the conclusion is godlessness?

“Secular Christian” is no more or less coherent than “Christian”. Why continue beating the poor horse?

Let us clear our minds and stop grasping at certainties. The infinite, miraculous Here and Now is what it’s about. The Truth resonates as Eternity in the most mundane moments of it.

The Carpenter surely knew this.

2014-06-12 12:05

Kevin Osborne – “While I do not believe in food, I value the ceremonial side of the supper table. Service utensils intended, not for the fabrication of eating, but to be waved about over empty dinner plates, fruit saucers, cups, bowls, serving trays, rice pots and other paraphernalia related to the mythology of consumption, can be important for purposes of nostalgic remembrance.”

Beautiful funny! But possible troll. Mustn’t feed.

(Note: There is a backstory to this.  I “know” Kevin and really just wanted to acknowledge how succinct, brilliant and worthy his comment is.  It has been hard to draw people into discussion lately.)

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