For the context of the following comments and to reply, please click on the DATE/TIME above them.
[From the Patheos blog – Notes From An Apostate – “Why This Atheist is Patient with the Religious – Part 1 and Part 2″ – by Sincere Kriabo.]
[john l. is responding to the blog post by Sincere Kirabo]
john l. – “Patience for the outragious LIES?
It’s just making lame excuses for being so INcredibly (as in NO-credibllity) brain dead from an early age, no curiosity, no rationality, no skepticism, nothing-just swallow fantasy and such blatantly obvious, in your face falsehoods and outright LIES.
AS a sentient, curious but realistic child, my first recollection of anything religious was hearing the nonsensical spiel in sunday school thinking, “what in hell is wrong with these people???
Adults, “grown-ups shoveling such obvious BS into innocent kids, worse than fictional fairy tails, simply the weirdest crap, I was embarrassed for them.
Nothing’s changed but only gotten worse, more invasive and dangerous to community, society, humanity.
It is purely child abuse for parents and other ‘adults’ to infect vulnerable young minds tuned to trust parents, adults as decent trustworthy teachers.”
It seems to me that what you are describing is a degraded form of
Do you have the same scorn for say Hopi or Navajo religious tradition
being passed on from one generation to the next?
john l. – “When Hopi or Navajo religious practices and beliefs or any others, shove them unwanted up our ears and down our throats in the form of controls over society, raiding the public treasury, yes indeed I will and have when appropriate.
Believers in magic mythologies who keep it to themselves and don’t hijack others with their goofy fantasies are fine with me.
It is child abuse of the worst kind to hit defenseless children with such life changing crap before they’re old enough to defend themselves. If this stuff is so great, they will doubtlessly choose it for themselves.”
I’m curious if you have had any encounters with the religious that didn’t prime you for fight-or-flight.
So many people keep it to themselves. How can you tell what has shaped the character of any given person you meet?
I definitely wouldn’t call it [religious indoctrination] the “worst kind of child abuse. I’ve met too many victims of incest.
And frankly, the blanket disrespect thing, is no better than the myopic and proprietary declarations of an avid Bible thumper.
I’m sure you must realize that it does not represent Truth.
john l. – “Religious freaks & fanatics, and their followers, are as obvious as a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.
And when you encounter truly obvious a-holes in things pertaining to humanity and life, whether the problem is ordinary loony tunes, insane political/ideological, or religious, (or as Mark Twain quipped: ‘but I repeat myself’) the result is much the same and has to be handled by a minimal of quarantine for the health and survivability of community and beyond.
Incest has obvious effects, from negligible to very serious trauma, no doubt. It is primarily physical, with very possible psychological effects. Without your indicated familiarity, I would suspect usually diminishes/fades with time. But this is far out of my pay grade.
The religious sickness, likewise usually inflicted at very young and defenseless age, most often remains for life, poisoning both individuals and society’s very humanity.
Ironically, the most effective cure seems to be the afflicted individual simply READING the bible…”
I’m going to have to let other people sort your response out.
I guess I’ve said what I know how to say.
john l. – “It understandably wasn’t much.”
brmckay – “Don’t worry, it’s not really your forte.
Read through some of your posts. You don’t actually bring anything to the table.
But like to hear yourself talk.
A regular master of vapidly grandiose scorn.”
john l. – “This typical from those dupes who have not one iota of evidence to make their case. Case? Ha.
That’s all atheists ask for, evidence. Not one bit in over 2000 years.
There’s nothing here to talk about.”
brmckay – “Plenty of evidence but not for those chronically out to lunch.
Not sure what 2000 years has to do with anything.
Maybe THAT is the problem.”
john l. – “//Plenty of evidence…//
But none presented.
2000 years is how long it’s been searched for, alas none yet found. It seems there’s much you’re ‘Not Sure Of.’
Admission of ignorance is the first step in learning.
I admit my ignorance of why 2000 years is in any practical way significant to what you call searching.
Searching (at least as I know it) has never NOT been. It’s counterpart is Finding.
As for evidence. Just reach for it.
john l. – “Everything is NOT about you brmckay.
Evidence is unlikely to be ‘there’ despite claims from ‘day one’. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, yet not a morsel, not a crumb has yet to be found despite untiring efforts of thousands, millions?
Religions are said by many to be god-explanations to natural phenonomen. As we understand more and more the magical mythical gods recede further and further into the mist of time and ignorance.. The day is approaching when he/it/they fade completely in the light of discovery and understanding.
Perhaps THATS when your education begins.”
Since we are both obviously talking past each other. Rehearsing our separate tunes. I’ll break it up a bit.
What changes if we know how this or that works? The bits and pieces out of infinite possibility?
REALITY remains unchanged no matter how far our knowledge expands.
You want proof of some god or other, but why? What would it change?
The infinitude of ALL that IS does not approach or recede. Grow larger or smaller.
You want people to abandon their gods then abandon yours. This no-god God worshiped by the aloof, unimaginative, or over-trained.
It no more represents the TIMELESS ENTIRETY than a few hundred years of mathematical speculations or tens of thousands of years of shaman’s dreams.
Don’t call IT God if it’s against your religion, but only a fool would claim that IT is NOT.
john l. – “It’s apparent few if any would object to other’s personal beliefs if kept personal and not imposed on others to the point where it impacts negatively on their freedom of choice and liberties. But when various forms of coercion from immersing defenseless children in cultish theologies through to the point of military and violent force, matters of human slavery, torture, war, and issues of life and death, it becomes a social issue to be dealt with.
Continuous and ongoing scientific investigation has brought you every tangible thing in human history Religion has fought it tooth and nail every step,of the way, determined to keep humanity in the dark of ignorance and retardation of witches, spirits and ghosts.
Your last post is the routine christian response when they run out their other childish arguments, to ‘You Do Too!’.
What can possibly be nuttier than accusing atheists of god disbelief to be their god?
This conversation has hit the bottom of the barrel. If this is your comedy gig, save yourself further embarrassment. Don’t give up your day job.”
I agree with you, but dealing with it, first requires accurate understanding of the problem.
The shotgun approach of attacking all religious expression as foolish, simply IS foolish.
There will be religion. There will be religious culture. There will be parents teaching that culture to their children.
The world, even in these times, has religions or subsets of religions, that are not cultish, or militaristic. They often are centered around the universal theme I tried to express in my last comment. The essence of Monism (a step beyond monotheism).
The Abrahamic traditions on the other hand, are prone to causing problems because of the latent dualistic emphasis. There is a “storyline”. God has a will (specifically, a will that mirrors our own).
The more science informs religion the better. But if science pits itself against the religious instincts of humans, We all just stay stupid.
Science can and will venture into the realms already explored by the Vedic Rishis, Yogis, Zen Masters, artists, savants, and generations of Shamans.
This in turn, will improve science, but only if there is an accompanying sense of humility to moderate our interpretation of what we learn.
john l. – “The ‘problem’ WAS explained in some detail. Reading comprehension is your next assignment.
Few ‘attack’ all religious expression. I expressively emphasized ‘Live and let live’.
You really need to read before yapping. Determined, insistent ignorance is never excusable.
We’re clearly finished.”
Kevin Osborne responding to john l. – “//Determined, insistent ignorance is never excusable.//
But it is understandable. One has become stuck in place in a motion universe that one is dimly aware of, so latches on to some solution allowing one to continue movement. The solution, being incomplete, fails, yet has become a part of one’s identity and is cherished as such.. So the solution and the identity are held onto and not looked over or that failure would become apparent. Taking another’s viewpoint is impossilble and attempts at reasoned discussion become an onslaught defending a postiion lost long ago.
The double attack of the motion universe and one’s (determined…,etc.) is a death sentence to logic, to understanding, to personal freedom. Fortunately any who are stuck can be freed up if willing.”
[responding to john l.
“Few “attack”all religious expression. I expressively emphasized ‘Live and let live’.”
You can believe the above about yourself and your fellow atheists (at least the anti-theists). But it is not very true. (This fellow, Sincere Kirabo being a pleasant exception.)
” ‘Blanket disrespect’ is the very best religion deserves.”
“Patience for the outragious LIES?
It’s just making lame excuses for being so INcredibly (as in NO-credibllity) brain dead from an early age, no curiosity, no rationality, no skepticism, nothing-just swallow fantasy and such blatantly obvious, in your face falsehoods and outright LIES. “
You in no way, EMPHASIZE “live and let live”. Sorry, but maintaining an attitude of utter scorn that you will keep to yourself, if those morons will do likewise, is not emphasizing “live and let live”.
That would actually imply “patience”. The subject of this blog post.
You baited me back into the conversation after I first withdrew.
(Your downplaying of the trauma of incest, relative to the ravages of Religion on children’s lives, had left me speechless.)
“You really need to read before yapping. Determined, insistent ignorance is never excusable.”
I don’t know man, it’s really hard to read this stuff differently than I have. I think you back peddled a little a bit, but the cat was out of the bag.