For the context of the following comments and to reply, please click on the DATE/TIME above them.
Kip responding to Kevin Osborne – “Kevin, you said that the scientific theory of evolution by natural selection is a ‘story’ that is ‘no more real than Hansel and Gretel’. That’s indefensible ignorance in anyone’s language. If, as you admit, you haven’t thought about it, and ‘it just isn’t important’ to you, why did you bother dismissing it as a fairy tale?
You’ve just illustrated how damaging faith is to a presumably normal brain. It’s instilled in you an illogical commitment to belief contrary to evidence and reason. But much worse, it’s given you permission to dismiss facts you find inconvenient. You are, seemingly, living proof that religion poisons everything.”
It was you that did not follow his point, but stuck stubbornly to the familiar structure of orthodox habit.
First, There is only Now. All that has passed has happened in this same moment.
All that will happen, happens only Now. There is no dimensionality to Now.
With this in mind, what makes any nuance of thought, event, phenomena or pattern of change more Real than another?
You are talking about an attachment of value based on what you are aware of. From your preferred frame of reference.
Ignoring the Bigger Picture, does not mean it has gone away. And advocating for the contemplation and realization of it does not “poison everything”. Though you imagine it to be so.
Kip – “You’re right. Looking back, somewhere, somehow, this exchange morphed from me defending the scientific method to Kevin’s philosophy of time rant. Which, I readily admit, is not something I’ve contemplated or understand fully. Whatever the case, any philosophy that allows the philosopher to compare Darwin’s tome to a fairy tale should expect rebuke, methinks. Now and in the future ‘now’.
No, advocating for the contemplation and realisation of a philosophy does not ‘poison everything’. But religion, as we know it now, does poison everything. Look around you, the evidence is now overwhelming.”
Notice how using the phrase “realization of a philosophy” serves to neuter the meaning of my phrase “and realization of it (The Big Picture)”?
Is this intended or unconscious?
What do you mean by “religion as we know it now”?
The stuff that gets in the news? Or, the quiet inner workings of spiritual awakening in the lives of billions of people?
[His lengthy response to the above, gives a good idea of where he is coming from.]
What is the responsibility of this demon “religion” in the existence of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons arsenals?
Gun fetishism, environmental indifference, corporate greed and aristocratic entitlement?
You are mixing your inputs and applying a personal antipathy to your assessment. It is no different that blaming Jews, liberals, blacks, gays, women, etc. for all problems.
Sorry to have to say so. But it reeks of hysteria.
Kip – “Ignoring my valid concerns and questions doesn’t make them go away, Brother. And dismissing them as hysteria is a form of censorship that weakens your one-dimensional ‘quiet inner workings of spiritual awakening’ position. Remember, only bad ideas require censorship to survive.
Accusing me of blaming religion for ALL the world’s problems is utter nonsense. I’ll be the first to admit that mankind doesn’t need religion to soil itself or, indeed, destroy itself. But to use that fact to defend religion is disingenuous and/or lazy. Especially when the three great Semitic religions have OBVIOUSLY got so much to answer for in causing so much physical and psychological damage to entire populations over the centuries.
All I ask is that you put the warm and fuzzy elements of religion to the side for a moment. Now focus on the obvious negatives and ask yourself if these disparate and divisive Bronze Age mythologies and cosmic assumptions are, in the main, good for mankind. If nothing else, it’s a liberating exercise.
There is religion and there is Religion.
Why not refine you terminology and maybe actually solve the crisis.
I don’t know what you were doing for those 30 years, but it is your own atonement needs tending not mine.
The Abrahamic line of religion is a drop in the bucket and within that stream there is a bundle of nonsense, but by no means the majority of it is foul.
You are confusing rudiments of human nature and historical forms.
The “warm and fuzzy” stuff is not your enemy.
Will you leave it to scientists and politicians?
Kip – “I agree! The overwhelming majority is NOT foul. Which doesn’t make faith any less delusional or intellectually dishonest. “
I’m going to respond to this before wading into the rest of your comment. The above statement, likely being the foundation of all that follows, is therefor NOT a “digression”.
Have you got any actual experience or understanding of the full spectrum of religious thought and practice outside of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic bandwidth?
How much “belief” do you invest in your own authority to have such didactic opinion about “delusion” and “dishonesty”?
Can you show me something in your own life that qualifies as entirely free of “faith” and it’s close cousin “assumption”?
Our subjective life is nothing but abstraction and approximation. Why are you aggressively picking on religious thought? Especially such a generalized stereotype of it.
Anyway, I’ll resume reading now.
Ok… having done that…?
Could you please go find whoever it is you are talking to and run it past THEM.
In the mean time, consider that you may be off the skids and fixated in an emotional spin-out.
If you want to continue the discussion, you’ll have to figure out what it is I’m saying and address that. I can, given half a chance, show you a “reasonable” approach to the whole God thing. But it would require you to suspend this parroting of atheist rhetoric. Which frankly, you are botching anyway.
The root problem isn’t religion, but ethnocentric tribalism. Us and Them. “The Real People” and the outsiders.
Competition, nationalism, self-interest. Check with an anthropologist about this.
The solution of course is to dissolve the sense of OTHER. Check with a Zen Master about this.
Time to get real kid.
[Long response to the above. Makes his position as clear as it can get.]——-
Kip – ” But, be my guest, my mind is always open; and maybe I haven’t experienced your approach before.”
Um….now I feel like the one who needs evidence.
As for proving that “a god” exists. You have yet to interpret my intention.
The whole point is that “a god existing”, implies the possibility of it’s not existing”.
These are the false gods of run-of-the-mill theists and atheists alike.
Try to step out of the DNA mandated dualism. It is not a true limitation of EXISTENCE.
Others have done so.
brmckay – “You have yet to interpret my intention.”
Kip – “Well it’s clearly not to engage in a two-way discussion. Or address my concerns about dangerous religious delusions. Or provide meaningful rebuttal to my criticism. Or answer my questions. Or tell the truth. Or exhibit basic manners. Or show me a “reasonable approach to the whole God thing” as you promised. So what, exactly, is your intention?You asked me a bunch of questions — I answered them. You said you could explain the whole god thing as long as I conformed to your conditions — I agreed.I asked you a bunch of questions — you ignored them.What am I missing here?”
To the best of my ability I have been right there with you at every turn. It hasn’t necessarily been what you wanted but again, one has to play the hand they have.
I’ll reword a thing or two and see if it works. And if not, we should let it go.
I agree with your assessment of the “wrongness” manifesting as degraded forms of religion.
However, unlike you, I look at the root of that wrongness and see that it is not the religious impulse at fault.
But rather, the same aspect of our nature that underlies all other manifestations of “evil”; self serving, ego/ethno/religio/corporate centric ignorance.
Ignorance of what? Of our True nature. Which I don’t mind calling Divine. i.e. Not Separate from the Whole.
Entire. Rooted in, and in Truth, Infinite. Potentially as perfectly expressed as such.
Religion, philosophy, art, science. These forms are not exclusive of each other.
If I have not persuaded you by now, then feel free to consider yourself right and me the fool.