For the context of the following comments please click on the hyperlinks above them.
(responding to AugustineThomas who had been getting abundantly caustic – IMO)
At the risk of engaging the troll, what are you talking about?
You run around calling people and popes heretics, but offer nothing coherent beyond this running drivel.
You seem manically driven to be rude and and absurd.
AugustineThomas – “You’re the troll you old hippie heretic. I’m sick and tired of fools like you bringing the Church to its knees with heresy and even outright apostasy and then trying to persecute the orthodox to cover your tracks.
Go back to “Clown Mass” you putz!”
As I was saying…
But putting the personal aside, why isn’t it idolatry to keep the “church” and throw out God?
Even with self declared “True Church” letterhead on the stationary.
AugustineThomas – “Who threw out God? (I understand if you’re referring to the heretics who have afflicted the Church over the last five decades. They truly do Satan’s work by sowing great confusion among outsiders about the holiness of the One True Church.)”
I don’t know anything about “heretics” having no church to defend. And yet would quibble about the term “outsiders”.
I’m also curious about the significance of the “last five decades” in your scheme of things.
AugustineThomas – “Jesus Christ founded a Church and gave authority over it to St. Peter. St. Peter founded the Holy See in Rome and the teaching authority of the Church grew up around it.
In 1962 we had something called Vatican II and a lot of people took it to mean many things it does not. Since then a lot of people have been preaching the cancer of the secularist belief system in the Church and trying to change the Church into something that pleases secularists rather than Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Not sure what “secularist belief system” might mean, except that the organization itself is embedded in the temporal and ever changing world.
Seems to me, that there is only so much one can expect from such an assemblage of motivation and agenda.
Best to contemplate God directly, without the layers of convention, dogma and opinion.
The question of heresy becomes moot. The remaining challenge; to honestly root out any tendency towards idolatry.
AugustineThomas – “Most of what makes normal people hate the Christian religion comes from heretics who perverted orthodoxy, whether within the Church or outside of it.
All of mankind is incapable of truly comprehending the bible. For one man to try to do it is truly insane and leads to a lot of negative outcomes.
Another thing that chases many away from belief in the One True Church is that there are so many one-man theologies whose proponents all war against each other and established churches or make ridiculous, relativistic claims about everyone being right, whatever they believe. Most people think ‘ “well they either can’t agree on anything or else they have a ridiculous belief that all contradictory claims are true” ‘.
Humans yearn for the real truth and all the Church provides that, both because the greatest theologians in history have been orthodox members of the One True Church and especially because Christ only promised the protection of the Holy Spirit for the One Church he founded and gave authority over to St. Peter.
Without dogma, doctrine and tradition, we have chaos, which chases most people away from belief in Christ. Christ is very clear that the sacraments are necessary. The chaos of Protestantism convinces people that they can ignore Christ when they want to. especially on the point of the sacraments. To deny the sacramental nature of the Church, which Christ set forth, is to deny the Church itself.”
Thank you, I appreciate this effort to help me understand the situation from the “insiders” perspective.
Of course I have a lifetime of encountering Christians of all sorts. As a result, I have to occasionally review the merits and faults. Comparing to my current understanding of things. Rooting out my own blind spots and assumptions.
When I contemplate the meaning of “Jesus”, I never come away with the “Church” as the primary message or purpose of his incarnation.
When I read his words, It is always with an eye for clues to the nature of God as he knew it.
That is what I understand from his referring to himself as both the son of God and of Man.
“I and the Father are One”
“Love God with all your heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself.”
“Love your enemy”
For me, the crucifixion was not a sacrifice required for the salvation of his followers. It was him demonstrating that death is not real. The mortal body does not sum up who we are.
“Turn the other cheek”
We are not finite. Our true nature is the infinitude of the source. God. Who he called his Father.
“As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be.”
If this is heresy, it does not warrant your ridicule and scorn. You yourself are also subject to the need for periodic review.
The guidance of the “Holy Spirit” is for all of us. But requires relinquishment of obstructive attachments.
Perhaps what you call the “One True Church”, is a construction based on your own limitations.
Whatever it turns out to be, it will share the characteristics of the eternal and changeless foundation. Manifesting in the world of temporal form in perfect complementarity.
AugustineThomas brmckay – “I appreciate your viewpoints and I agree with much of what you say, but Christ is very clear that he wants a unified Church and that the Holy Spirit protects his Church.
‘And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.’
‘If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.’
‘He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who gathers not with me scatters (Matt.12:30).’ “
I understand your angst then, when observing the mortal imperfection manifesting as the outward form of your church.
I myself do not know what to think of these proclamations that you attribute to Jesus. Since the process of sincere “knocking on the door” seems quite sufficient. At least in my life.
But, as with you, it is not Christ that I oppose, or hope to counter, with these discussions.
So, I’ll thank you again. And am inclined to let this thread wrap up now. It’s various readers can make of it what they will, according to their needs.
AugustineThomas – “I’m glad you love our Lord and I’m not trying to outlaw the faith that has brought you joy and security in the Lord.
I’m making arguments about what’s best for the largest number of people. Many people are being prevented from happiness living their lives based on the orthodox teachings of the Church because many others are lying to them about the nature of the Church.
I’m not against your beliefs. I’m against people lying about and slandering the Church and convincing the gullible to follow a path that is not natural to them because they’ve been convinced the Church is evil, when it is quite the opposite.
God bless you! Thanks for the conversation!”