For the context of the following comments please click on the hyperlinks above them.
(Note: The following took place on the “Clergy Project” blog. )
(Responding to an Essay by John Lombard. An ex fundamentalist missionary turned Atheist.)
I never understand ( or, if I do, it seems incredulous) why losing faith in the Christian storyline, means that the only option is atheism.
It often seems that the more fundamentalist the individual’s tendencies, the more this is true.
I have struggled for forty years towards a clear understanding of God. This has, from the beginning, required that I not become confused or waylaid by their proselytization.
Applying instead, my intuition and reason to study what God, Christ and Man really is.
Sometimes I switch to Sanskrit.
Sometimes to Chinese or Japanese and sometimes to plain old English.
And now Quantum Physics confirms the wisdom of the elders.
It boils down to giving credit where credit is due. Despite transitory and myopic inattention to the evidence.
To me, not contemplating God, means I would be failing to serve my humanity.
If you need evidence, just open your eyes, mind and heart without grasping at certainties.
Call it atheism if you have to. But why burden the children with even more baggage to work through?
(Note: His reply is relatively long and skewed in it’s interpretation of what I said. But quite interesting and informative. You can read it here.)
I know you spent a lot of time on this reply, but could you re-read what I said and try again.
Perhaps an invocation of “Beginners Mind” will help.
John Lombard – “I’m sorry…but when you’re invoking nonsense like “quantum physics confirms the wisdom of the elders” or that relying on certainties is somehow inferior to relying on…what (you never actually say)…”
All right then, I will have to do it for you. If I don’t, you’ll use up another hour railing against your projections.
What conclusions of mine have you rejected, if I haven’t mentioned any? Other than inferences about a 21st century refresh of the God concept.
I choose to advocate for a personal engagement with the Singularity. Finding that Human beings are well suited for this quest. (Gosh! It’s almost like we were made for it. – Yes I’m baiting you. Let’s substitute; made from it. This should spare you the need to say “balderdash” again.)
The “certainties” that I suggested you avoid grasping at, are merely atomized assemblages based on the perceivers vantage point. True understanding of course, does not reside there, since as you well know, reality is analog. Or is it?
If not the Entirety? What?
You rail on about “gods”. Sorry, not my bag. Why wasn’t that apparent to you in my first comment?
If your period of “contemplation” bore no fruit, I suggested that you were “grasping at certainties” where the opposite is required.
Consider the practise of “Neti Neti” as a remedy. The Elders have left you footholds and tools. Use them.
Kevin Osborne responding to John Lombard – ‘any religion or belief system will appear “true” if one is isolated from everything that contradicts that belief.’
“If free enough to know *everything* then one may appraise the all with accuracy. Otherwise be thrown into the wash like the rest of us, to gurgitate and find truth where we may.
I suspect the latter.”
(Responding to Kevin Osborne.)
Yes! gurgitation. The missing Word.
Mr. Two – “Among the worldly foolishness contained therein is the idea that there is such a thing as divine wisdom.”
First problem is holding some things up as divine and others up as worldly.
That paradigm should be old school by now.
When contemplating God, it makes no sense to think in terms of gods, or god and man, or heaven and hell. Even me and you.
The Entirety that is the expression of infinitude, manifesting as Here and Now should be a sufficient starting point. The field of enquiry can only be Awareness. That awareness is Self.
John Lombard – “There’s a huge logical difference between debate over ‘does god exist’ and ‘what kind of god exists’.”
In light of our previous conversation, I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts on my comment above. Even if it is a rebuttal, well rehearsed or otherwise.
If you notice, I seem to be advocating a form of attention rather than a belief system.
As regards the above quote, how does it parse. Is this of sufficient interest or, something already dismissed as irrelevant?
brmckay – “If you notice, I seem to be advocating a form of attention rather than a belief system.”
Mr. Two – “Yes, I noticed. I don’t know exactly what you’re getting at, but if I’m not buying ancient thoughts about god, here in an age when we understand so much more than those people did, I’m not going to trade Jehovah in on a “The Secret” or an idea that all of nature and the universe is metaphysically connected. It’s simply another form of woo that seems to be inspired by people’s imaginations.”
You have a very strong aversion reaction to something you refer to as, “an idea that all of nature and the universe is metaphysically connected.”
Remove the word “metaphysically” please. I haven’t got a clue what that means.
We have different understanding than past generations, but that is all surface. Nothing has changed about reality.
I used the word “attention.” What problem could you possibly have with that? I’m sure that we can both nit pick at each others attitudes and conjectures, but what’s that got to do with the nature of existence?
Mr. Two – “I think you need to start your own blog and spell out what you’re talking about, rather than try to give little hints on someone else’s blog and hope people will suddenly have a Eureka moment where what you’re hinting at suddenly becomes clear.
–EDIT– Sorry, I see that you do have a blog. I shall go have a look.”
I have to go where the work is.
It’s a simple thing actually. Not a “Secret”. Quite a common theme throughout history.
Different people have found ways to help me over the years. I try to continue the process. Both in myself and in others. It is nature at work. Like gravity. Like evolution.
Since you have trouble with my style and shortcomings, perhaps Kevin Osbourne’s blog will get you closer.