For the context of the following comments please click on the hyperlinks above them.
Gehennah responding to David Dashifen Kees – “What evidence do you have of a god.
Because if your god isn’t immoral, he’d provide testable evidence that we can have verified, otherwise said god damns us to hell because he can.”
What evidence do you have that *you* exist? Who is it that experiences *you*?
Are you immoral because you can’t prove that you exist?
What is hell, other than the difficulty of this existing? Especially in a stew of unbalanced and incomprehensible repercussions?
Would proving that you exist free you from hell, or make sure it happens?
In Zen, they practice Beginners Mind.
In Christ, become as a child.
It’s all True.
Gehennah – “While technically I cannot prove that I am not just a mind in a vat, I do experience this reality as far as I can tell, as well as everyone else around me since we all seem to be experiencing the same reality.
As far as the immorality goes, no, I am not immoral because I cannot prove that I do exist, yet your god is if your god is willing to punish someone for all of eternity because someone didn’t have enough evidence to rationally believe that the he exists. And the mere existence of a god does not mean that that god is worthy of worship, therefore the mere knowledge of the existence would not “take away our free will to love him of our own accord.” But providing sufficient testable, and verifiable evidence of the existence would allow us to make an informed decision rather than one of irrational faith.”
So the self that is experienced as *you* is ineffable?
But the *god* that you are railing against is quite clearly defined? And defined in some pretty dubious terms.
Does this help?
Perhaps the next exercise could be an examination of *existence* and *experience*. Both, as dyad *and* singularity, if possible.
Gehennah – “I didn’t say that, now did I? I said technically I cannot prove that I am not a mind in a vat. This is highly unlikely, just as there is a chance that the next time I drop my pen, it will float instead of fall to the earth. But the chances are extremely slim therefore I’m not going to live my life as if I am in a vat or if gravity will quit functioning.
But if your god does affect the world in a meaningful way, that affect should be able to be seen and tested. If your god has no effect on the world, then we have no reason to believe in said god rationally, because we have no evidence of it.”
“I didn’t say that, now did I? “
Well no, actually I did. But what is this *I*?
As for the question of the shorthand term God, it seems best to not apply fixed conception to it.
But let’s at least ponder things a bit.
When we ponder what God is, the place to start is Infinitude. This to me seems obvious. Anything else opens up the big can of worms called a pantheon.
Next, can we agree that *existence* seems to exist?
And from this, the question, does thought exist? In all it’s manifestations and results?
And from this, self? Does self exist?
Now, can we think of an aggregate of all existence?
But what about the potential to exist? Does this potential exist? Seems logical to assume so.
I suppose then, that the potential to exist must also be included in our aggregate.
From what does this great and ponderous aggregate arise? Oh, wait! It’s not ponderous at all. It’s actually lighter than a feather. No weight at all. Nothing to compare it to. So it doesn’t even exist.
Gehennah will be glad to hear about this and I don’t have to prove anything.
Gehennah – “You are right that you don’t have to prove anything to me. But your belief is irrational as you are believing it without evidence. Your beliefs seem benign, for the most part, so your belief in your god(s) don’t bother me.
Thought exists, we can test it. You can use a brain scan to actually see the reactions in the brain when someone is thinking. You can even tell generally what type of thoughts are going through people’s heads depending on what parts of the brain are lighting up. Its actually really neat.
As far as the potential to exist, it is a concept. Existence is merely the results of a reaction. Basically it all boils down to physics (and probably quantum physics in the end).”
“But your belief is irrational as you are believing it without evidence.”
The evidence is that is satisfies common sense.
I stayed within the bounds of a priori reasoning as best I can tell.
I’m not sure what you are doing?
“Existence is merely the results of a reaction. “
Please define “merely”.
Gehennah – “merely means only or just.
Existence is just the result of a reaction is a reworded version of the sentence.
I exist because of the reaction between my parents when they had sex approximately nine months before I was born.
As far as satisfying common sense, that isn’t rational to begin with since common sense is often wrong.
It is common sense that the world is flat (using only your senses), it isn’t. Its common sense that a heavier object should accelerate at a faster speed when falling, it doesn’t. There are many things that should be common sense using only your reasoning and senses that don’t play out once you test them.”
Well ok then.
But it is clear that you don’t have what it takes for the God contemplation business.
Best not quit your day job.
I have enjoyed the workout though.
David Dashifen Kees – “Reality is not simply the sum of objective truths. Instead, it is the sum of those truths and our understanding of them.”
This is the pivotal point. It is always missing from the empirically fixated atheistic argument.
The Universe i.e. God i.e. Reality is all and nothing. The seamless infinitude.
Without this as the starting point, we are not playing with a full deck. Mix that with a political agenda, and watch the nonsense fly.
(Responding to Linda_LaScola)
How can anything be ‘supernatural’? God, being Nature in the all inclusive sense of the term.
The problem with religion, is that it boxes people into formulaic and often sophomoric conceptions and expectations.
Real awareness, as the all inclusive, ever present, OneSelf, turns into brief glimpses of purposeful interaction with a powerful other self. This gets deemed *supernatural*.
The seeming silence of God, is just the echo of our ignorance and inattention.
Prayer, cultivated as a skill, motivated by, and combined with, the furthering of this understanding, does not go unfulfilled.