For the context of the following comments please click on the hyperlinks above them.
LilySmith – “I do disagree that Jesus taught pantheism, or panentheism of any kind.”
What does “I and the Father are One” mean? Does the Son have qualities that differ from the Father? Does the Father have qualities that differ from the Son? Are we to remain outside of Christ, like Creation is outside of the Creator? Isn’t this just a way of describing the “Hall of Mirrors”.
LilySmith – His teaching was based on the Hebrew Scriptures which taught that the universe was a creation of God, not just seemingly distinct, but actually distinct. That’s why Jesus came as the Way to the Father. Man could not be reconciled to his Creator until his sins were forgiven and he was provided with the righteousness necessary to stand in the presence of a righteous God. The problem I have with making the world God/The Entirety, is that all the evil, or bad, done is done by that Entirety since we are not different from. Calling it ignorant is to say that the Entirety is ignorant on some level, and I have always wondered how Eastern Philosophies figure that we got into this mess. Why did man become ignorant and his existence a hall of mirrors?
My understanding is that it is God that experiences the finite in the form of us.
“Good” and “Evil” are only relevant in the realm of Maya. (The illusion of otherness, Life “after the Fall”). The Entirety is not in any way affected. This is “Righteousness”.
The Buddha would say, ‘Don’t worry about how, why or by whom we have been shot by the arrow of suffering. Just pull it out.”.
I would say, that ‘this is what Infinite Potentiality Expressing, inevitably looks and feels like’. The nature of a finite expression as it wends it’s way through the labyrinth of evolution. Self returning to Self.
You emphasize the distinction. I prefer not to, preferring the paradox.
LilySmith – Since I believe in God who is separate and distinct from this temporal creation, I do believe in a judgment to come. With the idea of Karma, that requires multiple lives to be paid back for the bad done in one lifetime. Otherwise there is no justice. I don’t believe in multiple lives, but in one life that will end in judgment of the things done while in the temporal world. The problem I have with Karma is the fact that when a person experiences something bad in his life, the conclusion is he must have done something in this life or a previous one to deserve what he is getting. We see this taken to a sad level in the Caste system of India. I understand that if you want mercy in your life, you will be merciful to others, but when Karmic retribution is there to teach someone a lesson, who are you to interfere? Do you see the problem?
People who are not use to working with the concept of Karma always think in terms of Bad behaviour.
Karma means “action” or “work” in the context of the relative and finite. Cause and Effect. If our actions are ‘self serving’ their effect is to further entangle us in the web of otherness. If our actions are “Self Seeking”, their effect creates circumstances more favorable to enlightenment. (more filled with “Grace”). Evolution, rather than static oscillation, or even devolution.
“Judgement” and “retribution” are particularly, but not exclusively, Christian concepts in regards to our relation to God. The Karmic view of that relationship described above, is the result of my own work and that of those who inspire me. It is a work in progress and gets refined as I go. Others might not paint the same picture.
LilySmith – In Christianity we are one with God in purpose and heart when we come to him through Christ—the Messiah—who is a man who came from God to reconcile us to God. I understand what you’re saying based on your belief that creation is God and we are not different from it. But that is not my basis of belief and that’s why using the same words we come to very different conclusions. For that reason we are always going to talk past each other. I will hope someday you meet Christ in a personal way and are reconcile to God. You will hope that someday I get rid of my ignorance and become one with The Entirety instead of wallowing in SELF. Until that’s resolved we will just have to get along anyway.
Talking past each other is a waste of time and is unnecessary. No matter how any of us, including our atheistic friends, approximate the Big Picture; The Ultimate Truth remains as it is. The Real…Infinite Potential expressing as a singularity. The eternal NOW.
How we relate to it, is the expression of innate freedom. A true collaboration. A huge responsibility.
brmckay – “Not ‘made from’, but rather, ‘not different from’.”
LilySmith – “I note the correction.”
This is an important point to concede. The rest of my logic hangs on it.
brmckay – “The ‘I Am’ emergent from the essential Infinity, as the infinitude of ‘Otherness’, remains unchanged. God. The Entirety.”
LilySmith – “Or, the I Am is a God separate and distinct from this temporal creation.”
Saying “a God” leaves room for something else. Another god or many versions of God. This can not, in Truth, be. It is also plays into the “strawman” type attack frequently used by our friends at CFI.
I prefer something like “God as primordial Self Awareness, seemingly distinct from temporal creation”. I’ll refer back to the “not different from” concession at this point. Embracing the Paradox of our only seeming separateness, is an ancient Wisdom. Predating Christianity. I am of the mindset that Jesus did not negate it, but illuminated it.
brmckay – “The confusion of identity that we experience as ‘self’ in relation to ‘other’, living in this hall of mirrors, extended in time, is what you would call ‘sin’. I call it ignorance.”
LilySmith – “Unless we are each individuals with our own will, and this is not a hall of mirrors, but a reality in which we each reveal our hearts in the actions we pursue. When the temporal ends, the eternal will be seen and each one; each self, will be judged for it’s worthiness to enter the eternal existence of I Am.”
We have a difference in what we emphasize. I do not like to reinforce what will ultimately turn out to be a false perception.”
When I said in an earlier post, talking about Free Will, that “I’d describe it as the infinite ‘freedom’ of God expressed in the ‘finite’ as us.”, You liked it. Has anything changed?
This “temporal ending” is an interesting thought. Would it be the result of a collective awakening? Your way of describing it, makes it seem like it precedes, the “judgement” and subsequent entering into “the eternal existence of I Am.” I would say that time is “the hall of mirrors”.
This seems like a variation in out metaphors that ultimately points to the same thing.
Judgement for me translates into the Law of Karma. (for CFI folks, this is not supernatural but represents a physics that deals with “sentience” more like “electromagnetic radiation”.)
brmckay – “If God is outside of Creation, a shadow is cast, suddenly there is a Devil in the mix. What sustains this?”
LilySmith – “All that exists is allowed by God to exist for His purpose. Satan gives us choice. God is good. Satan is evil. Man has free will and can chose between the two paths. In doing so in the temporal, he reveals himself to all creation and God’s judgments will be seen as just when he judges who will enter the eternal.”
If you orient to a God that is “good” but not “evil”, you open the door to other gods. This in it’s self would require a “choice”. Who is the author of that?
I agree with you, though, that choosing is required for the big change; To see through the illusion of otherness and regain true Freedom. Or, to stay in it’s orbit, and through the inertia of actions, perpetuate the illusion. Probably increasing the chaos, and thus degrading our potential to get Free of it. (sound like Hell?).
brmckay – “‘I and the Father are one.’ Means you and me. Not just Jesus of Nazareth.”
LilySmith – “We are included if in fact we are one with God and his Christ in purpose and heart, not in what we are ‘not different from.'”
If we are “one with God” in purpose and heart this is “Christ”. So, yes!
Truth is though, that ultimately, we have always been “not different from”. No matter how lost in the hall of mirrors.
brmckay – “When he says, ‘None come to the Father but by me.’, this is the ‘I Am’, the singularity of ‘Self’, the Christ. Not the carpenter.”
LilySmith – “He is speaking of himself as the High Priest of God who justified those who believe in Him through his death and resurrection for the cleansing of man’s sins. This is evident in the teachings of the text in its context.”
I can let you have this (i.e. don’t need to quibble). Religion shares the same genius that manifests in our dreams. And, as with the miracle of evolution, it is born from the eternal now!
Scott Mayers – “You’re behaving rhetorically poetic which eliminates specific understanding. While this method certainly appeals to more people due to the fact that they are each capable of interpreting things in their own minds, it remains obscure (abstract) enough to appeal to anyone who prefers to think that you are talking directly to them. If you desire clarity, use full sentences and definitions that you and only you uniquely mean (unless you just enjoy people applauding your poetry for something even if it doesn’t match your meaning.)”
Yes, this is very reasonable advice.
My hopes generally, are to excite an “Intuitive” comprehension. I know this is anathema to the protocol here, but it’s the only way I know, and the best I have to offer.
Thank you though, for your thoughtful commentary. I’ll give it a rest for awhile.
The simple point that I’m trying to make on this forum, is that Reason and Intuition* are two sides of the same coin.
Both Science and Religion, ripen to maturity with the understanding of this. IMO
* The meaning of Intuition being used here, will remain vaguely defined. But, basicly, the essential, complement of Reason. There are, of course, Sanskrit terms for all of this, but what good would that do us?
LillySmith – “I think understand. You believe that all of creation is made from God/The Entirety. Creatio ex deo. And so you must look within to become one with all of creation, ridding yourself of self and becoming one with creation as a whole. Am I close?
My belief as a Christian is different in that I believe God created this world from what is not seen—creatio ex nihilo—and that the Creator is separate and distinct from His creation. And so we must look outside ourselves to God to find truth through his revelations to us.”
Not “made from”, but rather, “not different from”.
The “I Am” emergent from the essential Infinity, as the infinitude of “Otherness”, remains unchanged. God. The Entirety.
The confusion of identity that we experience as “self” in relation to “other”, living in this hall of mirrors, extended in time, is what you would call “sin”. I call it ignorance.
If God is outside of Creation, a shadow is cast, suddenly there is a Devil in the mix. What sustains this?
“I and the Father are one.” Means you and me. Not just Jesus of Nazareth.
When he says, “None come to the Father but by me.”, this is the “I Am”, the singularity of “Self”, the Christ. Not the carpenter.
LillySmith – “How would you describe free will without it being supernatural?”
I’d describe it as the infinite “freedom” of God expressed in the “finite” as us.
LillySmith – “God actually allows us to have.”
Any limitation that we experience in our “freedom” is due to natural conditions set up by the inertia of our previous actions, thoughts and inactions. This is malleable. We can improve our freedom or dig a deeper hole.
The preceding two assertions are based on my conviction that God/The Entirety, being the Emergent property of Infinite Potential; The primordial “Self”; Expresses infinitely as creation. Seamlessly.
If we anthropomorphize about the Singularity, we project our finite, otherness onto it. This digs the hole deeper. Turn it around and the sky is the limit.
Good and Evil are strong words. Worthy of the enormity of the potential they represent.
This is how I would talk of “free will” in non-supernatural terms.